house rule discusison

[Bella]

Let us discuss the current house rules here.  Once they are agreed upon I will move them to the Official House rule forum.  Please feel free to recommend changes to any of them (including getting rid or adding to any of them.).

here are the ones I remember at the moment.  Some are so old and obscure that some may not even remember they were created :-)

1. Maze is banned.  It sucks to have a character you play for years be taken out of the final battle because of a DC 20 intelligent check. still banned as written

2. I cannot remember the feat but the ones that let non casters create magic items is banned.

3. Only lawful good clerics and paladins are able to get holy on a weapon. - holy is a very powerful weapon ability and it makes no sense for non lawful good characters to wield a weapon with an ability that represents something that reflects righteousness (holy).  That is how I remember it.  

4.  If you take a prestige class you cannot take one or two levels to cherry pick abilities.  You must take the entire Prestige class before starting another.  You can switch back to your base class between Prestige class levels.

5.  You cannot have more than 2 classes and 2 prestige classes for a character.  - the reason for this was to stop min-maxing.  Example.  take 2 levels of thief for evasion, 2 levels of this other class for this one ability, one level of this for this ability, then two levels of this etc.

6. Ring of evasion is banned - something to the effect of you should not be able to buy class abilities.

7. If you craft the scroll yourself, you are able to cast it at the cl you created it at.  If you find a scroll it is the minimal CL.  Not sure if this works with wands as well.

8.  When crafting, the person with the feat and doing the actual crafting pays the 50% cost. Others who have the person with the feat and doing the crafting pay 75% of the cost. Rule stands

9.  The ninja can drop the poison aspect to gain trapfinding (like the rogue) and the disable device skill.  I allowed James to do this in Jade regent.  Want to make it official?

[Specs]

I agree with with most of these, I think that the holy one might wanna be reworked to limit you to being the alignments the weapons are supposed to count as and include axiomatic, unholy, and anarchic.

Banning the feat that lets you craft I strongly disagree with because it gives a large advantage to casters over non-casters in the magic items department overall.
In comparison of caster vs noncaster taking crafting feats with this feat available.

Caster:minimum caster level reached innately ; can learn learn spells that are used as part of creation to not increase crafting check by 5 for each prereq not met; can take crafting feats at their level ; can take any crafting feat they would like at the appropriate level ; uses spellcraft skill to craft item which they would put skill ranks regardless of having craft feats or not ; can create any item those feats give access to

Noncaster: has to put skill ranks into craft or profession skills just for this specifically to actually craft things and no other use ; has to take a prerequisite feat (master craftsman) apart from any crafting feats that this gives access to so they would have to till at minimum level 7 to get a crafting feat : get access to only craft wondrous and craft magic arms and armor feats ; unless they get someone to help them the checks for creating items tend to be +5 or +10 higher depending on number of spells needed ; also you cannot create any spell-trigger or spell-activation items.

Not having this is especially more punishing to noncasters because we also have the rule of everyone but the person taking the feat has to still play 3/4 price for items.

My vote would be to have either the rule of the 3/4 price or the rule against master craftsman, but not both.

[Bella]

I totally forgot the crafting one. duh. I added that one to the list to be discussed.

As a reminder, the reasoning behind non casters crafting is that they have no magic to imbue the magic item with. It also contradicts the original crafting rules as written. (crafting feats needing specific caster levels as prerequisites and when you craft you must have the feat. There is no exception to that rule lik ethere is to the spells or caster level requirements.)

Again, if the group as a whole wants to change something, it can be changed.

[Specs]

Yes though remember this feat was in the core rulebook of pathfinder, which my guess was a way to try and fix the power imbalance between caster gear and noncaster gear in 3.5.
And it doesnt bypass the rule of caster level, it addresses it in the feat
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

You effectively gain a pseudo caster level whose only use is for crafting magic arms and armor, or wondrous items. You have to use 2 feats and 5+ skill ranks to be able to do this and youre checks are higher for you because you need to boost the DC to craft by 5 for any spell requirements not met.

Skill ranks are a big thing to sacrfice because if you put it in perspective the only character able to afford to dish out extra and not suffer for it some way, and who doesnt have magic, are rogues, fighter gets 2 points+ int barbarian 4+in monk 4+in cavalier 4+in gunslinger. So they they have to put a point in craft or profession every level to be able to create even lower check items since the DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level of the item.

An example cloak of resistance +1 created by 2 people
lv 7 fighter has put 7 ranks in crafting skill gets +2 from master craftsman class skill +3 + 0 int bonus=12 boost to make the check has taken master craftsman and craft wondrous
requirements to make cloak :Craft Wondrous Item, resistance, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the cloak’s bonus caster lv 5 item

the DC for the fighter is 5 caster level + 5 crafting boost + 5 does not know the resistance spell= 15 dc so the fighter can make it on a 3 :)seems good right?

but wait

Lv3 wizard has put 3 ranks into spellcraft+3 class skill + 4 int bonus= 10 boost to craft skill takes craft wondrous
same cloak requirements

the DC for wizards is 5 caster level +5 crafting boost +0 he knows resistance= 10 so since you cant fail skill checks on a 1 he makes it

So essentially a wizard at 3rd level without altering anything other than taking a crafting feat can outdo a non magic 7th level class who has to put skill ranks into skills they dont use, take a prerequisite feat, the same crafting feat and have a higher crafting check DC.

Do you see why i don't see this feat as being too wacky or out there? 2 feats, a higher level requirement and continuous skill investmet if you wanna make higher items imo is a fair trade off. And dont forget that this feat also helps classes that are casters but have diminished caster levels such as paladins and rangers to put in some feats and skill ranks to be only a little below their full caster buddies in the crafting department at least. and also you have to wait 2 levels before you can even craft an item after taking this feat.

[Bella]

The group as a whole can decide that house rules fate and I welcome you to state your case (which you have). I will say this though.  I do not see an imbalance in gear.  Generally fighter types need the following.  Big sword to go boom with.  Armor to not die in. maybe a shield.  Ring of protection.  Amulet of nat armor.  ability increasing item.  after you aquire these most of your loot goes toward making these items better.

I will be happy to compare bella's items with yours if you want.  Also, if there is no caster to craft, no one gets cheaper items so no imbalance.  If there is a caster to craft, everyone gets cheaper items, so again, no imbalance (though under the house rule the one who took the feat gets an extra 25% discount.)  All other casters not crafting are even with the fighters.  At our levels the cost difference between half and 2/3 is not that much (in regards to the items we are wanting).  Later levels a bit more.

Also, if you have no magic how do you create something magical? (rethorical question)

[Bella]

Since Jorge started the discussion on the only magic users can craft house rule, let's take care of that one first.  Let's limit the discussion to that one.  If you have nothing to add to the discussion you can just say something like "master craftsman should stay banned" or "master craftsman should no longer be banned".
Master craftsman is the name of the feat I believe.

Edit: I just added a poll to get it over with.

Next we can discuss the crafting cost house rule.

[Specs]

Well I think it falls under the category of you somehow get to make an item without having the spell for it by increasing the DC of the check. It kinda makes it seem like you gain some sort of crafting magic ability from the feat similar like rogues gain small magics from taking rogue talents like. The magic kinda blossoms into being within that person.
Minor Magic (Sp)
Prerequisite: Intelligence 10

Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier.

[Bella]

My answer is "yeah but."

It is a very low level spell a rogue gets. The Master crafter lets a person make items with higher level spells. Get a headband of int and you can get a maxed out crafting or spellcraft skill with out putting any ranks in it.

[Specs]

and wait even longer than 7th level to be able to grab the 2 feats? no lie what does a fighter use int for other than in this particular instance and for getting out of a maze spell?

[Bella]

I dont know what you are refering to when you mention "and wait even longer than 7th." I am just mentioning that the fighter can circumvent the need to allocate his precious few skill points of the crafting checks as he can get max ranks in at least crafting free with a 4K purchase.

[Wakko]

Regarding evasion. I think we just looked at it and said that was wrong.

Regarding Holy. That one pretty much got banned after the Shackled City adventure path (3.5). Every character had it on his/her weapon and the whole campaign was against evil creatures.

[Bella]

I think everyone had bane - evil outsiders as well. So holy and bane were combined by everyone.

[girdnas]

I'm wondering about the ban on switching between prestige classes. Was there a reason this isn't allowed? I was going for a combo of Arcane Savant and Cypher Mage with Quorin and had no idea that wasn't kosher. I've seen more powerful combos made by combining Archetypes...

[Wakko]

I would think as long as the two are compatible, and have no contradictions, it should be allowed. Neither prestige class should have limits on staying with the class. Of course, the player should not just dip into the PC for some ability or power. He should have to take the class for more than one level.

[girdnas]

Well, whether you limit it to 2 or more levels or not, people taking a PrC for less than the full term are doing so as exactly that, a way to get an ability they want from the PrC without taking the whole thing. Like I said, I've seen Archetypes abused in this way to the point of being ridiculous, so if such a ban is going to be imposed on PrC's why not Archetypes?

I don't care either way. I just want to know if that is the case because if so, I have to change what I'm doing with my character once again because of rules imposed on me due to the tendency of others to create overpowering combinations of abilities.

[Wakko]

The two you posted for my online game (for Quorin) match up pretty well. No alignment or other restrictions. I can see you dipping freely between the two PrCs, even if it is for only a level or two. You have played your character so well, that I believe you are doing this for pure role-playing and not for power-gaming purposes. So I would have no problem with your choices. Even if you only did one of the PrCs for a level or two.

[Specs]

I think the whole entire prestige class thing is to stop some of the prestige classes that are rediculus at early levels like the shadowdancer prestige class which gives hide in plain sight, evasion, uncanny dodge, and darkvision 60ft for a 2 level dip. That is one heck of a deal for only needing combat reflexes, dodge and mobility (3 feats which are nice on their own) 5 ranks in stealth(never hurts anybody) and 2 in perform dance( eh could be worse) to qualify for the class.

[girdnas]

What i'm thinking then is that it really depends on the situation, the classes in question, the GM, the game being run, etc. so why should we need to put a blanket ban on it.

[Bella]

I will do the PrC house rule vote next. I will try to word it right but hopefully you get my meaning. I am doing my best to phrase the questions in a neutral way so I do not influence a vote.

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